January 11 DAO Call
*Assembly AI generated transcripts may not be 100% accurate, listen to video for original audio. (Video may not sync up with audio, trying to figure out fix for this.)
Assembly AI Generated Summary + Edits
Welcome to the first meeting of 2023 for The Effect. There are a bunch of topics. Excited for what this year is going to bring to the DAO. Happy New Year.
The next one is DAO Financials. Jesse has been working on reporting the transactions of the DAO in a more systemic way. He also wants to create a more an automatic process for the funding cycles.
DAO Financials and our Token page too, like the links for the smart contracts. That stuff needs updated too as well.
Ram Cleaning, a system for recycling. Jesse, you've been working on that. That's definitely a big update. We've definitely been having a little bit of problems with Ram recently. We'll need it fixed to scale.
If everything goes correctly, we should be High Guards by the end of the week. Constitution needs updated, too, for the High Guard election and recall, potential punishment for those who abuse ATPs.
DAO Telegram should become "official" telegram, as too much outdated information in old telegram. DAO Telegram link will be submitted to CoinMarketCap and other coin listing sites.
Generated Transcript
Rochelle
Okay, let's do this. Welcome to the first meeting of 2023 for The Effect. DAO. David, where's your applause? Sound bite?
David
I don't have it this time around. Good to be here. Good to see all of you.
Rochelle
I want the paid version one.
David
I'll fix it for next time, but nice. It seems like we have a lot to talk about this time around. There are a bunch of topics.
Laurens
Yeah, sure. It's good to see you here. And happy New Year, everyone. Excited for what this year is going to bring to the DAO. Pretty cool.
Rochelle
And speaking of, we have the first two proposals of the first cycle of the year. They're processing and they're both arbitrary transaction proposals. And I noticed I was on the DAO page looking at the proposals. There's a part where it says ATP transaction, and then it has the ATP of it, and you click on it and it takes you to blocks IO and to the multi SIG transaction. So when I get there on that page, Lawrence, as a High Guard member, I hit approve right now because we have to manually approve those for a short time. Correct?
Laurens
Yeah. So it needs approval from the proposal, but I'm not sure if that's up to the oh, yeah. Okay, I see that. No, that's not yet this one. So this one will put the High Guard in place for DAO proposal submission. For example, the quorum one will increase the quorum and it will give the High Guard permission to update the quorum. But I think this will be accepted by the DAO proposal smart contract in the end. So I think your approval will not do. Won't help yet.
David
Agreed. If I'm not mistaken, you can execute it when it gets approved, but yeah, only DAO proposals can approve it for now. Exactly.
Laurens
And DAO proposals, it's managed by the smart contract.
Rochelle
Got it. But in the future, as Highgard, wouldn't we have to manually approve ATPs? That's what we would do, right?
Laurens
I'm not sure if we need to manually approve them. We can manually reject them.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I think Jesse updated, so we have to manually approve them.
Rochelle
Yeah, for the time being.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I think it's it's only because the the High Guard appointment is this cycle. So the quorum would be at TP because like a manual code. Like a manual code to just, you know, set the High Guard the first time around. But then after that, we can do the ATPs, right?
Laurens
Yeah. Let me check the mission. High Guards, I'm just going over the multi sick transaction. Went to the Highguards in there. Nice. That it's fun to see, right? The appointment of the High Garden transaction and the quorum transaction, it will set up the permission of The Effect now to all of the highguard accounts. Maybe Jesse made it in such a way that we have to approve the ATP transactions for now.
Rochelle
Yeah, that's how he said he had it nice.
Laurens
That's good. For now, at least.
Rochelle
I'm just getting prepared today to make sure I know exactly what we need to do.
Laurens
Yeah, nice. But we are not high guards yet.
Miguel
Right.
Laurens
So that's going to be after the arbitrary transaction proposal is done, then the high guard is there. We have to wait until it processes accept implementation of that. I don't know. I'll take a look and I'll discuss that with Jesse. But it would be good indeed if we still have to do it manually for now.
Rochelle
I had one thing I just quickly wanted to put out, and that is it's the new year. We have committees now for the DAO and I'm ready to get started. And I hope many of you have looked at what I put for a DAO made DAP on the ecosystem. Regarding validation, it's a big aspect of what I geek out on the network, so I'm actively working on it and I'll fill everyone in more about that later. I just still have a call out to get some help on what we want to name it. So please take a moment and look in the DAO forum and give your ideas now because all of us working together, we're able to find a good name for Quickcat, formerly known as catalog from our hackathon in launchathon. So, yeah, that's all I wanted to talk about and to encourage people to start posting in the committee forums and working together and start getting ideas going forward. I know Gabby is looking forward to you guys posting ideas and stuff so she can work with the DAO marketing committee really closely. So that's my discussion point and update on that.
Laurens
Yeah. Nice. So you mentioned you posted that in Discord somewhere.
Rochelle
Yeah, in the Dallas Ford. Where did it go? Yeah, I listed it in the platform committee. And I still need DAO members who want to work more on the image validation task for the pilot program for validators DAO validators to get a hold of me and give me your worker account on effect fourth so I can get you guys starting validating tasks per part of this pilot program.
Laurens
You're nice. So you want the name, right? There are some suggestions there.
Rochelle
Yes. Not naming babies, naming a dad, which is kind of like naming a baby.
Laurens
Effective saladator. I like it. I'll think about a name as well.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, stuff. I'm not good of names.
Miguel
By the way, Rochelle, adding on to your point of using the committee forms a bit more, I wonder if we should kind of merge the developer forum and that as a tech committee for him, because I think the tech committee forum and the developer forum are probably going to be the same stuff. No?
Rochelle
Yes. Great idea.
Miguel
Just to clean up the discord a bit more because less rating chat is probably better, just to avoid confusion.
Rochelle
Yes. And I would delete the tech committee one, but jesse's amazing post is in there about ATPs. Can you copy his ATP post? I think we have it linked in some DAO stuff. I see it's linked in the DAO blog, which I can update later. Okay, so if you copy it over to the developer one and then I'll just take that link when it's copied over there and I'll update our blog post so nothing's broken. And then we can delete the tech committee one. Yeah, great idea.
Laurens
Yeah, great. Because in Midweek we have quite a lot of channels and different forms and everything, right?
Miguel
Yeah. I think to us, since we see it every day, it's a bit less challenging than for someone new coming in and seeing everything and kind of figuring out where everything is. At least we have the general chat so people know that they can go there to talk.
Rochelle
Yeah. At least no one sees my digital data clutter and hoarding in the archive part. I never delete anything. It's archiving back it up at this point. I know.
Laurens
Well, I can see all those things. Right?
Miguel
So you can see all of it too?
Rochelle
Yeah, everything under the international category is all disappeared. No one sees that.
Laurens
All right, okay. That's good.
Rochelle
Yeah. All that mess under there, that's all hidden.
Laurens
And I guess there's also this technical support session, right, with the ticket locks and everything, but that's only visible for that.
Rochelle
All they see is create a ticket.
Laurens
So I'm trying to think, as a normal user, how many different things do you see? So you see like, the Effect Network tab with the general and launch it on and actually, I don't think you.
Miguel
Even see the Effect out. Right, because you need a login.
Rochelle
No.
Miguel
It'S opened up.
Rochelle
Yeah. A handy tool that I like to use a lot is I'll go to server settings and then if you hit Role, you can view the server as a Role.
Laurens
That's nice. That's good.
Rochelle
Yeah, I like doing that. That way you can see what other people are seeing and make sure nothing is broken and stuff. You should have all of that available to you, too.
Laurens
Nice. But yeah, let's at least merge the developer and the tech committee thing so that the less channels we have, the better.
Miguel
I know it was a bit late. I was in the middle of something before I came in, but I saw that Jesse posted something earlier about some other topics and the doubt to talk about. Did we talk about any of those yet?
Rochelle
Oh, not yet. Okay. No, I was just copying it over to the agenda.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Perfect.
Rochelle
Let's get started on those. He put that he's very excited about AI integration, integrating Effect Network directly with model training systems. And I know this is something that DJ is incredibly bullish about, too.
Laurens
Yeah, me as well. It was the original plan of Effect AI.
Rochelle
Right.
Laurens
So that's how it all started. I was actually working on an AI for my master thesis that was called Effective AI. And then from there, we started to brainstorm and we came up with this plan to basically create this decentralized mechanical Turk to train AIS, right? Because a bit like what open AI was trying to do, right? They were trying to make sure that AI is for everyone and not just for the big tech companies with a lot of data. And you need data to train AIS, at least for most AIS, you need like a lot of data. And the data needs to be trained by humans because the AI needs to learn from humans and then it can do it by itself. So it needs a lot of training data. And right now we see that only like, the big companies actually have enough resources and data and exposure to be able to make really great AIS. Our plan was always from the beginning, like, let's make this an open network so that everybody can join and tap into a scalable workforce to train their AI models. And we try that a bit, right? So we tried to start out with just that. It was a bit of a hard sell in the beginning, so people had a bit of problems understanding what even is a mechanical Turk. And we were explaining like, okay, what's Mechanical Turk and AI? So we thought, okay, but it can do way more than that, right? So for me, we felt this AI is like a use case of what we can do with this workforce. So we decided to simplify the bit, everything, the whole story, and focus a bit more on the working parts on different types of tasks. And we called it effect force instead of mechanical.
Rochelle
Turk.
Laurens
That was the original name. But I'm like really excited now that we're kind of coming back to it again, right? We are a bit more mature now. We're now completely decentralized, so the story even makes more sense. So for me, it's great that we are coming back to this AI part. So I love it and I love.
David
To explore it more indeed, especially now with all of the ideas that you put forward. Alex the plan right now is to build a prototype with hugging face. We'll be applying for a Palmer Grant so that hopefully we can also sustain the development of this like for two to three months. I think we should be able to create a pretty decent gap within that time with all of us here, and really push forward a prototype and show the deep learning community that we can add a lot of value to their existing data sets. So for now, the use case is going to be just to take a simple hugging phase data set and add one extra row and create a nice little interface for Within Effect Force to create that. And hopefully we can set ourselves in the scene for appending data and augmenting it.
Rochelle
One of their big rules is for the greater good. And you can't have had like a token sale in the past. And so DeVita and I have really been looking at their rules and the EOS Network Foundation's rules with their grants and the EOS Foundations grant stipulates. One of their requirements is that you have to have been awarded a Pamela grant. So that's why we're going to focus on the Pamela grant. And with that, though, what we're working towards is that the grant is being requested by the DAO. It's the DAO working together, getting this grant and building the AI integration tools or whatever. My words are escaping me. I'm doing exceptionally well today. And then the DAO receives the grant and then uses the funds from that to give to the developers building it. So this would not be a grant for the team at Effect Network, it would be a grant for the Effect Network.
David
Agreed. Yeah, it should be controlled by the DAO for sure. I think that we should have added that clause. Thanks.
Rochelle
I just wanted to make it perfectly clear that it's not the team getting this and going for it. It's for the network. I e the DAO that governs the network.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, that would be great because I think so the ENF EOS Network Foundation, they're pretty relatively recent, I think. I think the foundation kind of existed, but they never, as far as I remember it, always felt like Buon just abandoned EOS and Effect Network was kind of on its own. Right? And I think there's an old article about that actually caused some confusion, actually, in the EOS community. Like that network was moving to binance smart chain one. Really, it's just we made a bridge that made us cross chain. But in the article it actually also was mentioned that EOS doesn't have support. And so yeah, I think the Effect Network as a way to onboard people to EOS is like, I think, a very complementary system. I think so far, I don't think any other EOS project is doing something like this, especially trying to provide use to AI researchers who use a hugging face. And that's also like I think that's a great idea because there are plenty of image, there's data sets of where there are images and then summaries of that image or ratings of they have humans that rate, say, a subset. And with this precise app that you're building, we could have like an easy tool for them to rate 1000 images out of the whole set and see if that corresponds to their ratings and stuff like that. So I think it's definitely a tool that could provide some use. And hopefully the grant and the Pamela stuff kind of puts us on the map for the rest of the EOS community and we can show that we can build useful applications on EOS. They're also cross chain by a smart chain and also onboard people. So I'm hoping everything along those lines works out.
Rochelle
Me too, me too. And that's the goal.
David
Exactly. Thanks for bringing it to our attention and we hope that this should also help us create a bit more of a splash and reconnect with the EOS community, especially now that it's coming back and we see that it's much more community driven. We really see like there's a lot of a big push again to really create better developer tools, to create better documentation to really support the community. I for one feel inspired to keep on working on EOS.
Rochelle
He says, well OpenAI, thank God they're open source, even though Microsoft is kind of trying to court them.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Not really bad open source.
Rochelle
No, not too much compared to how.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Much they pledged they would be.
Rochelle
Here's my issue with their thing their AI model is great, it's tool is great, everyone's in love with it, everyone's using it but me. I see extreme flaws. Like take for example, there's people having it write a blog post, they're like write a blog post on this topic and the thing will write a blog post on that topic. However, it's just going by all the information on the internet from two years ago to make that blog post. And while their tool is super great, I for one, can easily tell something that's written by chat GPT because chat GPT is in love with the word. This is why this allows you to this and anyone who uses chat GPT to write a blog next time over the next six months, if you guys read lots of blogs and tech topics that are kind of like a little broad general, watch for the word this. And we still need humans to look at what stuff Chat GPT algorithm has made and then make corrections to it and feed it back to it to tell it no. You can't start a sentence three times in a row with the word this, it's still not there yet. Tools are great and people are innovating a lot with what AI can do, but still you need a way for people to easily augment the data and that's when we come in and that's our big thing is to be able to build tools where people can do that.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, I've read that they do have a lot of tuning in human workers, but generally I think, I don't know if you can have a generalistic model that can appeal to everyone. So yeah, like you know these things and that may be just a result of them like trying to push, like because if you look at Chat GPT it's pretty clear, like if you try to ask it to do something.
Rochelle
That.
DJSTRIKANOVA
It doesn't want to do, it will explicitly tell you no. And that's the result of tuning and filters and stuff. Like I don't even know how it works, but I know for a fact that definitely like there is a process with humans, like validating the outputs and it's learning from that to improve itself. And with hugging face, I think the ideal is instead of basically people will have their own because I think it will be kind of like Bitcoin in a way, because Bitcoin was like the original crypto, right? But then there is all these forks and other innovations and so I don't think there's ever going to be like just this big one, like one AI model, like the Master Generalistic model that does everything. I think there's just going to be just a sea, a torrent of all sorts of specific models that are great for some specific thing. And maybe you can kind of create this program that uses them all and that kind of will be like something that passes the Turing test or whatever. But I think with all this, as Lawrence was talking about, this will definitely require human workers to build the data sets and also validate them. And with a Fat network, it also will be decentralized because we have our data sets that are built, they're on IPFS, they're publicly available. And I think that's like, with hugging faces, the same case where it's all publicly available as research information. And with Microsoft buying, I think it was like 49% of was it open AI. It's basically a megacorp. And I don't know, like, it's definitely I think it's definitely going to be something that's going to be hotly debated and controversial in the future. And that's going to be like, do we want megacorps like Microsoft and Google to have these powerful AIS that only they have access to can set, like what it tells people? Or do we want it kind of more decentralized where people run it on their own hardware and they kind of have their own filters for what people can and cannot do. And it will be kind of clunky compared to like a centralized thing, but people will have control of it. So that's going to be like a major theme in the future because there's only just four months ago that stable diffusion came out. I think it's growing fast, right? It's just blowing everyone's mind. So I think 2023 is going to be like a massive year for it.
David
Indeed. So too, and as well, with the hugging face models, with being able to generate a sentence of text or a small paragraph for you and then all of a sudden now being able to generate the whole article, it's going quite quickly.
Rochelle
Yeah. And with all of this, what we've been talking about with the hugging face stuff and tools we can build, it also made me look back at our original white paper, the only white paper we have, and really pay attention to what Lawrence, you guys came up with, with the smart market. And part of that is still really relevant. Do you remember?
Laurens
Of course I remember. Yes, I agree. I would still love to explore that further at some point DAOn the line. But for now I think it's still good to focus on this first step. Right? Yeah, this first step of well, technically.
DJSTRIKANOVA
A smart market would be possible on the Fact Network you would just have a program reading that has coming into a campaign, right?
Laurens
Yeah, sort of. Then the AI is being mimicked by a human workforce basically. Right, and that's definitely possible. But like the smart market is like a decentralized marketplace where people can share AIS for example, or algorithms in general and those can be an AI. But that could also be that there is a human workforce attached to it, like an Effect Force task attached to it. Right, so yeah, that definitely be a great step. Or maybe it's like a whole pipeline where some of the things are already completed and some things are like a human in the loop, like verification. So yeah, I see that's a way too easy to build. Automation flows in a simple way, in a decentralized way, where it can be partly human and partly AI. But that may be for the next steps.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, I think so too, because if you look at other the AI focus cryptos, like for example Fetch, they have this agent and then I was looking into them and basically the agent runs the model and also acquires data and so like and then you have like multiple agents offering the compute. I don't know like how to best explain but basically like they run the models and they can pull together data in a decentralized way. Like for example, it would be like hospitals, they have their own data sets, they don't want to share them. So they all create models building upon each other's data sets without sharing their data sets. But that's just an example that there are other cryptos that are kind of working on because there's a bit tensor too. And the general idea is basically people can use their GPUs to run the models and then get to some crypto in return. Like that's the basic idea. I have seen other not as prominent as data set focused ones. There's Ocean Protocol that may be complementary to Effect Network sometime in the future because it's basically a data set marketplace. Right, and so if someone wanted to build a data set using the Effect Network workers and then sell it on Ocean Protocol, that would be a way to make it complementary. I think we should keep an eye out for developments as well because I feel like with Defy it kind of seems like it was always competitive, like you didn't want people going to other platforms. But I think with AI there's going to be a lot of complementary cases where some cryptos may be beneficial to collaborate with to enhance the capabilities. But yeah, I think for now hugging face is the main priority. Because they already have all the data right there and adding that data is going to be really useful.
Laurens
Yes, for sure there will be a great focus point. Great start.
David
I agree. That's pretty interesting analysis and pretty interesting way of contrasting what happened in DFI and what might happen in this machine learning space. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, because with machine learning you have our data sets like human workers, then you have the models which require computation to create, but they're like basically they're like these big files. Right, so you need like storage and a place to sell them. So there's other storage type cryptos. I think that literally storage is one of them, I think. And then finally there's the compute. So, yeah, it's kind of like all of that you envision in your original white paper, but the scope is pretty massive. I don't think it would have been possible to really build that all out because I think it is going to be like the decentralized AI is what was envisioned in the original white paper or for Effect network. But it's kind of like we're still on the first stage.
David
Yeah, indeed. The scope was away from us. But I like that they tried to dream big.
Laurens
And the dream is still there though. But yeah, it's good that we focus first on this first step, which is already like a massive improvement and a massive thing. Of course, if you have a decentralized scalable workforce, there are so many possibilities with just that alone. Of course. But of course the dream of a decentralized AI platform is still there.
David
Speaking of, shall we move on to the next point, developer bounties?
Laurens
Yes, so I have to leave in two minutes, so I'll but just continue and yes, if you need something for me, then maybe now is the time. But I think David can just talk us through the next step.
David
That's right. Okay. Yeah. So about the developer bounties. So we used to use Notion as our scrumboard and we used to kind of keep track of all of our tickets there, but recently we moved everything over to GitHub. So development is a lot more open and people can participate with issues and they can submit any issues and we'll use the issue tracker on GitHub in order to kind of spur on development as we go along from now on. And from that as well, all of the developer bounties are listed as well as a project on GitHub. And yeah, I planned in a call for next week for us and Jesse as well, and anybody who wants to join the developer committee so that we can kind of go through it and sync up and align on what we're going to build. Because we had a meeting last month but nothing really came out of that for a plan. So we want to talk about the plan this time around. And started signing tickets and really start digging in a little bit into the weeds of what we want to finish for the DAO.
Rochelle
And also what this means is, and I put it in the blog post that we released for our milestones for the year, made a big point that we're developing in the open now, so it's all going to be open and inclusive. So DAO, non DAO members, any developers, they'll know exactly what we're working on and the tickets and everything will be out in the open and public and claimable by anyone who wants to do it. Right, david and Miguel yeah.
Miguel
I'm excited about it too. It gives a lot of the new developers something to look at instead of like a bounty board that was a little barren after the main things were completed last time. So definitely a great move.
Rochelle
Because someone was hogging all the tickets. Right, Miguel?
David
Okay, that's it. The next one is DAO Financials. I wasn't completely aware of this, but apparently Jesse has been working on reporting the transactions of the DAO in a more systemic way instead of and he also wants to create a more an automatic process for the funding cycles.
DJSTRIKANOVA
So he doesn't have to manually set the cycle.
David
Yes, I think so.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, that's something that we need to get done because there's always someone asking why it's happening. The cycle started four days ago or like negative I mean, it's like a negative number there and it always trips people up.
Rochelle
Maybe we all just want to be time travelers.
David
Indeed.
Rochelle
Yeah.
David
I think Jesse is the one who's in control of it.
DJSTRIKANOVA
And sometimes if I were to make a guess, it would be like make it a High Guard controlled thing. So instead of him having to sign the transaction, the High Guard does it.
David
Yeah, I like that.
Rochelle
Something like that. Yeah.
David
I was thinking of having some kind of cron job to do it for us where there would be a server somewhere and every two weeks it would run a little cron job that would.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Be a centralized bill.
David
Yeah, indeed. I also don't like that about.
Rochelle
I.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Know doesn't EOS have a timer functionality, but it's kind of like unreliable, I've heard.
Rochelle
Yeah. One of the pains though is like when you put up a sentiment proposal and you ask for 100 EFX back your cost for putting up the proposal. Jesse also has to manually send the 100 EFX to the wallet from the DAO proposal thing. So there's a lot of manual work. I don't think so. I know it's part of yeah, I think it's don't call me on it for certain, but I know there's a lot of manual stuff like he has to do every time a cycle starts and ends and all that. So I know he's looking to really get it in an automated way or a more decentralized way for this to go.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, it would. Definitely have to be done because if you ask for a grant while he has key control of the DAO, then it's going to raise a bunch of questions and so yeah, it'd be best if it's done before the grant's time.
David
Yeah, good point.
Rochelle
And I know and speaking of that too, it's the DAO Financials. It's also like the Token financials. There's been a lot of talk and thank you so much for helping out with no. These Tokens were here and then burned and then unswapped and stuff. Yes, that's a big thing that needs updated is like the whole overview and overhaul of the data about our Token and numbers and things and then also a live version that shows the network fees coming into the DAO from tasks on force and things like that. And I think all of that is what he's wanting to work on with this stuff too.
DJSTRIKANOVA
All that would be excellent. Yeah. I was thinking just the DAO Financials, just automated reports showing just in cycles how much is sent out, how much is recycled, how much is, I guess a reward. And then all those for like a year is 26 cycles.
Rochelle
Right?
DJSTRIKANOVA
So like every 26 cycles we have like an annual summary, maybe quarters. I mean, if it's automated quarters work too, but yeah, that would be great because as we start branching out into the EOS community, we want to make it clear that this is a decentralized DAO. That may not I mean, it's kind of top heavy right now, but it's still a DAO and operates through smart contract. So all these stuff and also for just general EFX Token holders because the DAO treasury is basically a big holder. There's 164,000,000 EFX there. It's good for people to have confidence knowing that the DAO doesn't abuse its powers with the treasury, that it's fiscally responsible and stuff like that.
Rochelle
Yeah, and our Token page too, like the links for the smart contracts. That stuff needs updated too as well. A lot of people don't even know. Oh, you were on Neo before. Yes. So this much hasn't been swapped over. Yes. So the total supply really is this well, yes, but all that needs cleared up.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, that'll definitely be useful to clear it up, especially with the coin market cap and coin gecko and all that. And partially the problem is I think like on Hookoin, like it still has like the meal trackers, the primary link. So like yeah, like I guess it's partially just the whole migrating chains is a real hassle, but yeah, we're now on the OS to stay and any bridges we make are just bridges and so yeah, it would be great to have all the up to date information everywhere.
Rochelle
So it's too soon to announce the Token migration. No kidding. I'm still kidding. Such a bad joke.
Miguel
Really fun by form one.
Rochelle
Everyone, you may see that this April. Just give you a warning no kidding. Just kidding. But yeah, it creates a mess. And what's so annoying is, like, these exchanges, we're at the mercy of them and their timing to update info. And at least right now, not a lot of people are launching and making new tokens and getting listings, so their workload should be lighter. Which means, in my mind, there's no excuse why they can't just do it right now. But I think if we get our info pages updated and stuff, when we go yell at them again, hey, update our stuff. Look here, here's all the info you need. I think it will be easier for them to make those changes if they can see all the info they need readily. Their forms, when you ask for changes and updates and stuff, the forms that you type in on their websites, they're only so many characters long. So nice to have a place, a link to.
David
We can try DMing them via Twitter, via our Twitter account or something like that.
DJSTRIKANOVA
You should get Blue, too, on that account.
Miguel
Twitter blue on the effect. Yeah. Is it Blue or is it the other way?
David
Have you tried going for that? Sorry, Miguel.
Miguel
Or is the Twitter like gold or something?
DJSTRIKANOVA
Oh, yeah, maybe gold, actually. Yeah, good idea.
Miguel
Actually, I think Gabby was saying something about crypto accounts, or was that no, I think that was just Facebook. Something about crypto accounts. I'm not really giving it easily to crypto projects. Not 100% sure on that. So don't quote me. But definitely something that we should get.
Rochelle
It well, there's Twitter Blue for business, the gold for business that's being rolled out only to select businesses.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Oh, yeah.
Rochelle
But any business cases? Yeah.
Miguel
Okay, then, yeah, that one should be the one. I see CDC has Blue for business verify account. Yeah.
Rochelle
Ram Cleaning, a system for recycling. Ram. Let's recycle.
Miguel
Jess, you've been working on that. That's definitely a big update.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, that's definitely update.
Miguel
We've definitely been having a little bit of problems with Ram recently because of the amount of work that we're like the extended tasks that we've been putting on.
Rochelle
Well, no, I put up 200 tasks and then everything comes scratching to a halt.
Miguel
Correct me if I'm wrong, David, because I'm not really sure exactly how it works, but I think it's not just the tasks that you put up, but like, the previous tasks that it has to remember has in Ram still.
David
Indeed, I think that's it. And also submissions by the workers. So when somebody does submissions, it just kind of ends up on the blockchain for a while. And now we should be able to clear submissions and free up around.
Miguel
Yeah, there is no garbage collection, I think before.
David
Yeah, it's been a long time coming.
Miguel
Yes, that's a good problem to have. Because that means that we're using the network more and more.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Well, yes, exactly. We'll need it fixed to scale because otherwise it's just going to hit the limits each time we have any substantial amount of tasks.
Rochelle
Right now, I'm terrified that someone's going to put a big order on Quickcat from the shopify app store, and then the tasks are going to go on the platform and then not work.
Miguel
Has that been tested, though?
Rochelle
No.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Well, you could always just donate your EOS. That's always sucks.
Miguel
There's something.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I use the EOS Power Up auto tool and it generally works. But yeah, I spent like seven EOS at one time, and I think Jesse stocked 100 EOS into that account.
Rochelle
That.
Miguel
You can put in that.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I think it's 100. Yeah.
Rochelle
Okay.
Miguel
Yeah. I remember either you or Jesse were saying it in that thread. I was reading it.
David
I've also used it in Boston. It's a bit tricky.
Miguel
So definitely a big update coming from Jesse when he gets that out, it'll be really good indeed.
David
And last but not least, ATPs. So if everything goes correctly, we should be High Guards by the end of the week.
Miguel
Actually, everyone on this panel is going to be High Guard, I think.
Rochelle
Are you DAOn with ATP.
David
Also?
Miguel
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we were saying before, when the High Guards get initiated, is it now every cycle we approve or disapprove of the proposals, or how does that work? Again.
Rochelle
For the time being, once we're all assigned on the blockchain, for the time being, we will have to manually approve ATPs. So if an ATP pops up, we all have to manually approve it for them. I'm trying to find where Jesse wrote that DAOn.
Miguel
I think that was in the proposal itself.
Rochelle
Yeah, at the very bottom of the proposal, it says it.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah. I think that was in response to my concerns about potential, like, well, the quorum issue is being dealt with, but even we also have stake age, actually, so that helps. Also, like, you'll probably need because the new quorum was 1.5 million, and I think with efforts you do need actually 15 million EFX initially, because it's only one you stake, it like, at zero. And so you accumulate stake age. So and the other thing is, well, this is something that hasn't really been explored, but if such an attack happens, we would want to be able to punish the attacker.
Miguel
Let's take your stake age.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I don't know if that's in the Constitution, though, if that's the case.
Rochelle
Yeah, well, Constitution needs updated, too, for the High Guard election and recall, basically.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I'm thinking, is drafting, I guess, an excessive amount of proposals that are not intended to be voted on by the broader doubt and just try and just slip them in, both like, just their support. I don't know how we'll have to word it, but I don't think there should be really any other punitive action except in the case of trying to abuse ATPs, because that's like a real that's just like something that can really screw us over. So there needs to be like a punishment for failure to discourage any attempts.
Rochelle
How do we.
David
What?
Rochelle
Well, because you know how to beat and like being a node, they're slashing and stuff like that. Is there like an equivalent action for this case that's like slashing?
David
I think that's what you mean. Right, Alex? Where if you behave in a certain way that goes against how healthy the network is, you get punished. I don't think we have anything implemented at the moment, but I do think it would be a useful feature to have where we as the High Guards can then we can create a proposal.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah.
David
The community can decide to slash somebody.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, we may do it that way. Like, maybe it could just be a like it's just something that came to my mind. It's nothing, I think that's urgent. I guess maybe I'm just like a cynic because I always think about how malicious actors could abuse some sort of system. So with the ATP, the quorum helps because then they will need so much NFX. The only option that could happen is if someone gets compromised and then if they're compromised, for the time being, approving the proposals I think is fine. If it's just four that need to approve it, I think there will always be four available because it's a three day period we have. Right. That's the intent. The processing period.
Rochelle
Yeah.
David
I don't remember how long it is, but I'm imagining that we'll have a list of template ATPs that people can create any cycle and then one of them would be, for example, slashing and or blacklisting a particular account.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah. The only thing is the rules for that need to be clear cut and I don't think they shouldn't do with anything else except I guess, for example, trying to steal the treasury funds. I guess it's hard to explain because we don't want to make this out that the High Guard and DAO can just drip people of their funds with majority rule. Right. That that will be bad. It's like it has to be like some like a very specific way of abusing the ATPs. And I guess we just need to learn more like I guess I need to learn more on how they work as well. Also, it could be an external action, potentially. I've read that name. So EOS has their own. There are hacks report to the Bps with the proof that like, some hack occurred and the Bps can actually reverse the transaction. So that may be something worth investigating as well.
Rochelle
It's just some kind of action that prevents them from ever putting forward another ATP.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, it may be a better idea just to ban people from submitting a proposal. That may be the safer way. Because if we're seizing funds, it kind of creates a slippery slope. Even though it has happened before with the one time an account was compromised, but it makes people uneasy and maybe it's better to just ban people from like if we ban them from voting on proposals and also ban them on submitting them, then they can't participate and they have to leave. I think this at least prevents them from I guess it's just a tricky problem. I don't know if there's like the best solution yet, but I do think.
David
You'Re coming closer to a solution though. Maybe instead of an altered ban, it would be a ban of a couple of months, for example, where people would get stripped of their powers for a bit until they prove themselves one way or another. But indeed, I do think it's necessary to think about bad actors in order to make sure that nobody compromises. The network it comes with the territory.
Rochelle
Would be maybe where you would do the timer thing on EOS and restrict it to submit proposal and vote. You got to think about it in action.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I have an idea. What if we could scale the proposal fee? So your first proposal is like 100 EFX and then your second is 200, and then after that it's 400 and $801,500. So that way the first few proposals are fine. But if you want to spam, you would have to have lots of accounts, I guess, and that's kind of like a few.
Rochelle
But when you submit a proposal even in draft form, and it's not assigned to a cycle yet, we have DAOn members that have like six, eight proposals in draft, so that would also ding them as well.
DJSTRIKANOVA
That's true.
Miguel
Every cycle or something.
Rochelle
Oh yeah. Per cycle.
David
Should it be proportionate to how much the proposal is asking?
Rochelle
What's going to calculate that there's no back end?
DJSTRIKANOVA
Well, the ATP may not even ask for like I don't know, it may just be a cent.
Rochelle
Yeah. Great things to talk about in the developer meeting that we have coming up.
David
Indeed, indeed.
Miguel
Network security.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Just something to think about. I don't think it's going to happen in the moment. At least we'll be able to be aware. It would have to be a big account or they'll have to have 1.5 million more NFX. So I think we would have time to think about it before it's really a possibility because by the time that happens that will be much more centralized and bigger, I think.
Rochelle
Yeah, you need to think about it now. And on that note, we are at an hour. I unfortunately can't stay over.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah.
David
I also need to leave in a bit.
Miguel
We'll have the developer meeting is next Tuesday, right, David?
David
That's right.
Miguel
Okay, so that'll be a good chance for us to talk more about the security and then also talk about some more developments happening.
DJSTRIKANOVA
So I think I just have one last question. It's about the official telegram. The question is because the team doesn't want to use it and this is just an if okay, because I'm not spearheading anything. It's just if the DAO wanted to start moderating the official one and opening it up, would that be okay with the team?
Rochelle
I've been watching this, okay? And Allen allen made great points too, about that. But here's my thinking, is that we supported the DAO opening one and having a community ran and not just team monopolized. But honestly, for me, as someone with an extensive moderation background, nothing is being moderated in there. You guys have one nasty person in there. And even mods are like there comes to a point where you got to shut it DAOn and it's not being done. So I'm all for the community kind of having their own and having it as the official one. And I think the DAO, it should be the DAO one since the DAO is going to be mainly governing the entire network. And that's what we're moving towards, is that the Effect DAO Telegram is the new Telegram channel of the Effect network. So the old one that the team had that shut DAOn, it's just there shut DAOn. But the Effect DAO One is one that needs to grow more and be better at moderation and better clear cut rules because we're already talking about everything that the DAO is doing and building and stuff in there, and that is the Effect network. So in my view, it's the effect. Networks, telegram channel. It's just the DAO is running it and maintaining it and being responsible for it because we've passed that with proposals. So honestly, for me as a team member, I would say, no, it's dead. It hasn't been used in over a year.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Well, then, if that's the case, we'll also make me to try updating the links on all the coin market caps and all that.
Rochelle
Yeah, that's a big part of it too, that needs to go away.
DJSTRIKANOVA
If it's something that the team does not want to support anymore, then we should point it to the DAO Telegram. And as for moderation, I mean, moderate for me is a tricky subject because I tend to be a person who kind of unless it's spamming, anything goes. But that's not really the rules. And so I guess it's up to Brie and the other moderators to decide. I think if it's just one guy, the thing is, if you delete a post, then some people think, like, why did you delete it while you're trying to hide? And nothing is being hidden. His arguments are just flawed and not making sense.
Rochelle
Exactly. And I had counseled Brie and the others when they were forming it, and the consensus was made that if someone was in nasty and not listening and just staying on and on that same old stuff, that they would just mute that person. They wouldn't ban them or kick them or get rid of any of that, but they would just mute them where they can still read along still be involved, but they just can't spew that stuff anymore. And for me, as someone with a moderation background, it's not good. And right now it's showing me that the DAO community is not good at managing it. And this is just on a very small scale with one angry person.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Well, I'm not sure if yours is necessarily the best either.
Rochelle
Oh, no.
DJSTRIKANOVA
It'll be good for the DAO to, I guess, figure it out. I guess. As long as we kind of become our own separate entity. Right. I guess it's just something that will be learned over time.
Rochelle
Exactly.
DJSTRIKANOVA
As you said, it's just an experience building thing.
Rochelle
Yeah. How I see it is the Effect DAO Telegram that should be the official telegram of the Effect network. And it's starting to I mean, the DAO will look at us now, we're starting with our committees and our focus groups and starting to actually do things that control the network that advertise the network that do all these things. We're getting a grant and stuff. So how I see it is why take over an old channel that's already been closed for over a year? No one's really paying attention. Most of it, it's just spam bots that are coming in there. They're all spam accounts. I look at them yeah.
DJSTRIKANOVA
And I think the others are just people go on the main coin listing sites and click the telegrams.
Rochelle
Yeah. And that stuff all needs updated too, and that needs to be taken away and yeah. The DAO One needs to be listed on there. Yeah.
DJSTRIKANOVA
So if the DAO is listed there, then I don't think there's a reason to kind of revive that channel.
Miguel
No, the DAO one in that case will become like the main telegram used to contact people in effect, just talk about Effect stuff.
Rochelle
Yeah, I see the DAO Telegram, it's got some growing to do. We need some good mods, good rules in there and then it can take off once these coin places update stuff, so and then there's parts of the discord servers that are going to be taken over by the DAO maintained too. It's switching everything over to the DAO from the team. It's part of building the DAO bigger than ever before. So yes.
David
Wouldn't it be easier to resurrect the old channel, give it over to the community instead of changing it on Coin Market cap?
Rochelle
But it's so outdated. Everything in there, all the messages and all that junk, it's just outdated and it was completely toxic and we've changed so much from all that. To me, I view it as putting on a dirty pair of underwear on a new day.
David
Yeah, that's a good point.
Miguel
Most of the stuff is going to have to be changed anyway, so what's one extra link to change on the Coin Market Caps part? Right? Because we like, we have to change the stuff saying that we're still on Neo, we have to change the market cap and we have to change this and that. So we're already changing that. Then we can also just probably add, hey, change the Telegram to this instead.
Rochelle
Yeah. And the few people who actually use the search function when they're in a Telegram channel, they'll look for steaky effects and it'll be old outdated stuff that will pull up as results in there too for them. So, you know, it's so outdated and.
Miguel
Just, I think optimize making the Effect DAO like, I guess for lack of a better term, like the official or not the official, like the main well.
DJSTRIKANOVA
The DAO is official and the DAO has like 160,000,000 effects. So we're the biggest entity as there's basically two big entities and we're on par with the foundation at this point, at least in reserves.
Rochelle
Yeah. And what I see happening with Too, like the app Effect network on there, on the dashboard, user dashboards for requesters and workers. We're adding in the discord stuff. We can add in the Effect DAO Telegram in there too, and all that stuff because it's all going to be all one inclusive UI that has everything. I see the DAOels Telegram listed on there too.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, in all the site updates. I think the DAO Telegram is ready to be linked and all that. Yeah, moderated, shin wise, the experience growing pains, but at the same time, I do feel like the Telegram is run, like, as a distinct entity and I think that's a good thing.
Rochelle
I do too. That's funny, they're like tagging me. Why'd you delete it, Rochelle? I'm like, Lawrence and I aren't mogged in here. Don't blame us, we didn't do it.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, because so much has changed.
Rochelle
Yeah.
DJSTRIKANOVA
The DAO is growing and participation.
Rochelle
And.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I hope it keeps growing. So glad we talked about this part.
Rochelle
I think so too, but yeah, the old channel is dead outdated and yeah.
David
Good reasons.
Rochelle
Yeah. All that stupid hype stuff is in there and none of that is relevant to today. So.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yes, that's the other thing. Like basically at this point, we have to prove ourselves technology wise. There's no other option we can't overhype. We just have to show the working stuff, right?
Rochelle
Yes. And that's a big part of also Too, why people are like, when's the updated Roadmap where's the updated Roadmap, the blog that was published today, speaking of team comings and goings and the whole roadmap, there is no roadmap. We touched on it in the blog. It's milestones and it's projects and things in development, like current projects and this is what's going on and it kind of doesn't work right to have a roadmap and Q one, we'll do this, this and this. Well, it's a collective effort with the DAO and the team together and the DAO having a big part of doing these things as well and being actively involved in it, in these items as well. It's kind of unattainable to have a roadmap because it's not just US building and producing anything anymore alone. US is in the team. It's being shifted to the DAO doing all of it. There's not going to be a roadmap but everything is going to be like, look, this is what's actively being developed right now. These are the things and hey, look at all the stuff on GitHub, the development on GitHub join in too. Yeah, that would be everything.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Basically what features are being developed on right now. Something like that.
Rochelle
Exactly.
DJSTRIKANOVA
And then news when it's completed.
Rochelle
Yeah. So it makes better sense to do it this way than do a roadmap like brand new startups do, breaking it out into different quarters. That doesn't work for us anymore.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah.
Rochelle
And that doesn't give a good picture of what's going on. So this I think is better and more open what we're doing. So bye bye roadmap, hello milestones and active projects.
David
Yeah, I like that. And the team of having a team and like working on that instead of just a very active deadline.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the fourth enhancements.
Rochelle
Call me too.
David
Indeed. There's still just a couple of bugs that I want to work on. For example, the reservation outfound bug. That one is really being annoying for everybody and I want to get that out of the way and then continue working on more features.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Excellent. And I was just going to say that for outreach yeah. It would be good for us to start participating in these EOS Fireside chats. Usually right now there's like just Eden OS and well really that's like the main conversation right now. Like because I think they all the chief delegates in this valve. They got the prior incumbents, they all got replaced and there's like kind of just like a bunch of talk and then about that and I think it's kind of interesting to learn more about what's going on in EOS, especially now that the ENF is being much more active.
Rochelle
Yeah.
DJSTRIKANOVA
And you can also give the effect network updates when they're good and ready.
Rochelle
Yeah, I'm attending that today. That's the one in a little less than 3 hours from now yesterday yeah and then tomorrow about 24 hours from now -20 minutes they have another one EO support is hosting it's really cool.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Originally I thought they were like a scam but then they're endorsed Martha Mello they're endorsed by INF and they have their own doubt. They do provide good support to people so they're legit and so maybe in the future if we are overwhelmed by support requests we can lean on them.
Rochelle
Yes, I've used them in the past. What was it when we first came on to EOS there was a lot of people asking questions about wallet and the key pairs and stuff because they were used to using Neo and things. So it was a very big switch as far as permissions and keys and wallet and stuff like that. I used to send people over to the EO Support Telegram and they were like helpful. But this outfit, boy, they're always battling. Hey listen, we're not going to direct message you first. They're constantly being impersonated by Scammers and that's such a big obstacle that they fight like every day. But no, they're great. It's just they have an easily scammed name. Every Scam amber does that name. Yeah, they're good group of people and they know a lot about the whole antelope stuff. The one guy from EO Support actually got me in touch with one of the people on the Antelope group was developing on there. They're great for networking and help and making connections too.
David
Indeed. I also saw your Fireside chat, Alex. I was surprised actually, like how open they were to any project just coming on and talking about themselves. So yeah, for sure. I would like to do that as well and just give a little presentation about what we're doing and community outreach. I think that's important. It's really nice to see you doing that.
Rochelle
Well, I'm going to adjourn. I have some other work to do before I join in on that Fireside Chat later.
David
Cool. I'll send the link through. Hopefully still be awake and I'll be able to catch up on it.
DJSTRIKANOVA
I forgot which Fred it was. Was it the ENS Network Foundation Fred? I'll post in general chat again. Alright then. I guess I'll see you all another time then.
Rochelle
Yup, see you later.
David
Good luck Rochelle. See you.
Rochelle
Thanks. I'll hear David. I just messaged you the link to it.
David
Sweet, thanks.
DJSTRIKANOVA
Bye everyone.
Last updated
Was this helpful?